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Guide line update for second half 2010

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wixwacing
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Guide line update for second half 2010

Post by wixwacing »

In an effort to introduce an extra level of parity to the set class racing I have decided to trial a new guideline for the second half season 2010. The guideline I am thinkiing about is the 3 : 1 or higher final drive ratio. Why so? I have often been bemused at the success of Ninco models on board track when raced against a host of other models with the same speed motors. Some simple maths shows why they are so dominant.eg, lets take a model with 21 mm diameter rear weheels.

21.0 X 3.142 gives the rolling circumference 65.982 m.m. divide by 3 from (3:1) gives the distance travelled for one motor revolution, eg. 21.994 m.m. Multiply by 18,000 to get the distance per miniute. 395892 mm per minute. Divide this by 60 to get the distance travelled per second, in this case 6.598 metres!!

Now, lets take a Ninco NC5 with the red sidewinder gears. These gears are 32 : 12 or 2.666:1!! Maths if you want to check is 21 X 3.142 div 2.666 X 18000 div 60 ! This, if you do the maths, comes to 7.425 metres per second. This amounts to 0.827 of a metre (82.7 cm) per second on the track (12.5 %) , which I think is a little lop sided when it comes to parity!

So as mentioned, prepare yourself for the guideline which will kick in from July 2010 for Slotcar Legends race meetings. The guideline will also apply to all makes and the fitting of 10 Z pinions to cars will only count if you also fit a 30 z or greater crown gear. As an observation, the black Ninco sidewinder gears are rated at 33 : 11 (3 : 1 ) and are available as an axle, spare Pt No. 80419 53.5 mm wide. In-line Nincos are already 3:1

Please note, this will only apply to the set class usually raced as the middle event of the evening. Trophy classes and Track Owners Choices will still have their own specs issued for each event.

Ciao.
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kenneth
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Re: Guide line update for second half 2010

Post by kenneth »

:?: :?: :?: :?:
I thought we raced box stock - if it came out of the box - thats how it runs .
Does this mean if it doesn`t meet specs out of box we need to spend money on fixing it???
I dont even get the gear ratio thing, never counted teeth on anything i own, if i replaced something it was 9 & 27 fro respective gears which is 3.1 (as per guidlines) . As for anything i have bougt that ain`t broke - well it never got fixed.
Really confused now??
I`m having a hard enough time driving/tuning whats there in the car let alone doing maths - i thought we just raced toy cars for fun not doing maths!!!
Man - if i wanted to do maths i`d go to uni!!
`It is better to enter a turn slow & come out fast, than to enter a turn fast & come out dead` Ferry Porsche
paulthetexan
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Re: Guide line update for second half 2010

Post by paulthetexan »

Hi Jord

Take a deep breath and relax mate , read between the lines and look at the big picture . Phil is a Sclex/SCX man and intends to run his Legends outfit in that guise . First to fall were Fly and now it seems Ninco are not worthy . When you look critically at the feild theirs not much left

Fly : Poor quality for price ( apparently )
Ninco : poor scale , over powered & over geared ( apparently )
Autoart : motors too fast , poor drivability
Cartrix : too expensive , limited feild
NSR : Havn't raced them yet ?
Slot.it : seperate class
Revell/Mon/MRRC : Motors too fast , poor driving models
Spirit : good luck

Which leaves Scaley , SCX , and Carrera and thats where Legends Racing seems to be moving to .

Alternativley lets look at the classes that it affects JGTC / Modern GT . Other classes like DTM , LMP and Rally have inline motors and 3:1 gearing so they will be fine .

I have to say I don't understand the need for this rule either . Simple gearing will not change a thing . Ninco cars are faster because they have more powerful motors and can carry more weight and still accelerate and brake better . Not to mention that they are out of scale and only run drivers trays not full interior .

Hang on , my glass is empty , I'll be back in a minute !!!!!
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Cyph
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Re: Guide line update for second half 2010

Post by Cyph »

The below is a random comment by someone who used to race with you guys in Queensland until he foolishly decided to move to Tasmania.

Ahh the joys of gearing, and in Ninco's case, NC-5 motors. If you are to change the gearing on an NC-5 to a 3:1 ratio, I fear that the Scaley cars will beat them, due to the sheer fact that with a 3:1 gear ratio, the Scaley cars will be more responsive and quicker accelerating.

It's more the motors that make the difference though, not the gearing. The NC-5 will be miles ahead of a standard Scalextric motor if you're comparing them stock (and at their manufacturer recommended voltages..), as per the motor listing at Slot Car News

NINCO NC-5 (FK-180)
[16,216 RPM/12v] 20,000 RPM/14.8v, tested 20,930-21,638 RPM/14.8v
[235 gcm/12v] 290 gcm/14.8v, 9.6W/12v

Scalextric standard “black stripe”, Sport (FC-130)
18,000 RPM/12v; tested 20,577-22,300 RPM/12v
tested 99-104 gcm/12v, tested 5.3W/12v

If you're running an NC-5 motor at 12V, you're suffering a massive RPM drop at 12 volts, compared to the standard Scalextric motor which is doing either 18,000 according to Scalextric, or somewhere in the region of 20,000-23,000, however the RPM drop is offset by the torque as the motor has roughly 2.3 times the torque of the Scalextric motor, though this is a stall rating.

Phil, you say you're bemused at the success of the Ninco models when raced against other models with the same speed motors, but that isn't the case if you're running at 12v, as a Scalextric motor will be quicker. *shrug*

As Paul has mentioned, the Ninco sidewinder cars wider and slightly out of scale, can carry more weight - but they can make up for the weight deficit with the extra torque the motor produces, and as a result of said torque can brake better and launch quicker - which isn't a result of the gearing but the motor.

If scalextric motors made as much torque as their Ninco cousins at the same voltage, the Scalextric car would launch and brake better, as the gear ratio at 3:1 is actually shorter than 2.66:1, and the shorter the gear ratio, all things being equal, the quicker the acceleration, but the lower the top speed. (Too much time sim racing, and figuring out gearing has taught me this much)

If the Scalextric car is running the same weight as the Ninco car, the Scaley is throwing away all it's advantages in gearing and suffering from the fact it's motor makes less than half the torque of it's Ninco brethren. The Scaley car will need to run lighter, and maybe make it up in a different tyre choice to provide better lateral grip through the corners.

And I suppose the final variable in any of this is the driver of the car. If you have a better driver in a Ninco car and a worse driver in a Scalextric car, I can see the result at the end of the night a mile away. Conversely, put a better driver in a Scalextric car, and a worse driver in a Ninco car, and I think the result is still the same. *shrug*

If you make the Ninco cars change to a 3:1 gearing, with that much torque, the Ninco car is gonna get to it's top speed a mile quicker than the Scalextric cars will, coming out of a corner or going from a standing start, just entirely due to the sheer torque of the damn things.

Another random thought - are the people with the Ninco cars using adjustable controllers and all that, and are thus able to control their cars better? And blarrgggh. There's too many actual variables!

As I said at the beginning, it's a random comment by someone who used to race with you guys when he still lived in Queensland. And would, if he still did.
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kenneth
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Re: Guide line update for second half 2010

Post by kenneth »

Thanks Rob, i understand much better now. I always thought at 12v the Ninco motors were well under scaley RPM, the torque i thought was a bit better by not that much, it makes more sense to me now.
Torque will always give a bit of an advantage in braking and acceleration ( i like you learnt in Gran Turismo on the PS2), so the gearing debate is all a bit fluffy, what the deal is, is torque.
SO if i understand it, if the scaley motor had more torque it would actually more than likely be an even contest regard less of gearing.
Any manufacuterer have a mabuchi style can that produces the same torque as a NInco?? I think that may be the only fair way to test the theaory.
Be buggered if i am going to count all those tiny teeth :roll:
`It is better to enter a turn slow & come out fast, than to enter a turn fast & come out dead` Ferry Porsche
Eggmeister
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Re: Guide line update for second half 2010

Post by Eggmeister »

FOXTROT UNIFORM NOVEMBER
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Cyph
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Re: Guide line update for second half 2010

Post by Cyph »

Eggmeister wrote:FOXTROT UNIFORM NOVEMBER
10-4 good buddy??
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Andrews
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Re: Guide line update for second half 2010

Post by Andrews »

Jordan,

There are no motors running 18k @ 12v that have the torque of the Ninco. The closest I have found is the one I used in the Autoart Veyron in the unmarked supercars and it pushed that AWD portly sow along just nicely at 2.8:1 gear ratio. Didn't quite have the brakes but hustled along well. It was a little light blue H&R Hawk 18000 motor which was all of US$8.95 from Professor motor. Runs the following from Slotcar News' motor power list :

H&R Racing Hawk Motor I (FC-130) 18,000 RPM/12v; tested 18,900-19,000 RPM/12v
tested 140 gcm/12v, 6.6W/12v

There is one motor with heaps more torque but it runs the following :

Avant Slot Mag Motor "blue" (FC-130) [21,892 RPM/12v] 27,000 RPM/14.8v
[405 gcm/12v] 500 gcm/14.8v, 22.2W/12v, 44 gr. mag. dnf.

It has massive magnetic downforce and it growls when used as it has such strong magnets. Obviously outside our classes but it is a difficult motor to drive with, not smooth at all. Just to prove the point that there is such a beast as tooo much torque. Anyway a little off topic. Sorry.

It is Foxtrot Uniform November experimenting though.

We could always just go the way of the V8's and have similar undercarriage/motors across the board, just different Body/chassis manufacturers. I have a motor mount coming to allow FC130's (mabuchi/scaley) motors into a SCX mount, and have adaptors to mount FC130's into Ninco mounts. We could all run a standard motor and standard gearing, just play with different body and chassis.

FOXRORT UNIFORMITY NOBLOODYWONDER !
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